tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36762068.post8593204520790746833..comments2023-10-22T05:51:24.101-04:00Comments on Phasing Grace | Social Architectures and Virtual Worlds: Second Life ... RightsGrace McDunnough™http://www.blogger.com/profile/10573463430195713363noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36762068.post-35516912415804339182010-01-31T20:40:53.762-05:002010-01-31T20:40:53.762-05:00Grrr, I just noticed that Blogger's OpenID mod...Grrr, I just noticed that Blogger's OpenID module asks for name and nickname, and then merrily ignores them when displaying the comment. That was me above :) !Rheta Shanhttp://rhetasworld.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36762068.post-88911275659477756652008-05-06T11:11:00.000-04:002008-05-06T11:11:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36762068.post-54529119869623708802008-02-15T08:39:00.000-05:002008-02-15T08:39:00.000-05:00Grrr, I just noticed that Blogger's OpenID module ...Grrr, I just noticed that Blogger's OpenID module asks for name and nickname, and then merrily ignores them when displaying the comment. That was me above :) !Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36762068.post-17557866465972807562008-02-15T08:27:00.000-05:002008-02-15T08:27:00.000-05:00I'm a bit late discovering this post (RL had me ve...I'm a bit late discovering this post (RL had me very much offline in more senses than one these last weeks). Such an insightful post followed, and such thoughtful comments…<BR/><BR/>@Grace The blogger's block is a feeling I know all too well. I have found it helps me to remember two things : <BR/><BR/><B>1.) the world is a complicated place, and neither of us has to put it in place once and for all</B> — meaning I found « it depends on how you look at it » and « both » are often good answer to « either or » questions.<BR/><BR/>In our case, SL is giving people the opportunity to participate in change, change themselves, and precipitate change shaped by a changing world. Neither a world-changer nor only the expression of a changing world, the word we look for might be <I>catalyst</I> (i.e. without effect where the right conditions do not prevail, but radically changing the situation where they do) to its residents — while of course being a business to the company LL is. There is no contradiction there, just two points of view :).<BR/><BR/><B>2.) Baby steps do it when blogging</B> — nobody expects things to get nailed down once and for all in a blog, so even if the world afforded the big answers, the nature of blogging is such that we can merrily ignore that and latch on individual aspects. A blog that has all the answers isn't a blog any more, it's a manifest :). Just look at the fascinating discussion you have sparked. Keep on going, Grace, we love your stream of consciousness !<BR/><BR/>[I was going to add 3.) Don't be afraid of mediocrity, but that is for me, not for you :).]<BR/><BR/>@Digado : a peck on the cheek of my favourite reductionistic positivist.<BR/><BR/>@iyan writer : group therapy indeed , I'm going to quote you on that ;).viumAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36762068.post-33374604906853541852008-01-30T20:33:00.000-05:002008-01-30T20:33:00.000-05:00As a philosopher-king, Philip makes a great softwa...As a philosopher-king, Philip makes a great software engineer. Developing nations, like the US in the nineteenth century, did not have strong land and IP rights. Both historical claims are a late twentieth century fiction that first appeared about the time congresses and parliaments started extending the terms and reach of copyright far beyond where copyright had ever been before.<BR/><BR/>Beneath all the vision stuff that pours out of LL in a never-ending stream are a series of lousy business practices, poor customer service, dreadful customer relations, and a conviction that total silence is the best response to any community opinion.<BR/><BR/>Debating whether SL is a product is the exact equivalent of exciting debates about how many angels can dance on the sharp end of a pin. (Answer: Probably more than avatars can dance on a sim). Selling pizzas and regularly making billing mistakes does not increase your return on investment. Selling pizzas, regularly making billing mistakes, and making frequent high-sounding speeches about the central role of the pizza in the cosmic order does not do a lot for your return on investment either.<BR/><BR/>Good service and treating customers like they know what they're talking about would be a new policy for LL. Substituting better service for high-flown rhetoric sounds like a business plan that could work.<BR/><BR/>Treating customers seriously inevitably involves conceding them rights, whether they are called user rights, avatar rights, consumer rights, or the right of angels to dance on pins.<BR/><BR/>Philip needs to wake up and smell the pizza.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36762068.post-6319248261630572732008-01-30T09:35:00.000-05:002008-01-30T09:35:00.000-05:00This is great commentary - I'll try to address som...This is great commentary - I'll try to address some of your points.<BR/><BR/>@iyan<BR/>What "selected parts" of the SL community do you think are addressing these issues? If you mean the constant flow of grid talks, I personally don't count sitting around for an hour every week addressing issues. That's passive activity, we need action. Certainly, it's an important first step, but much of it is ala Echo Chamber.<BR/><BR/>As for LL regulating the banks, I see no reason why any business entity would pursue that as a course. In my mind, like in the case of gambling, there was no decision to be made, the US Courts make those decisions. And frankly, I don't see how the bank issue resides on the same plane of consideration as improving the human condition, but I'll jump over to your post and see if I can grok your point.<BR/><BR/>@digado <BR/>Your point about the misunderstandings is well put, and frankly that is what has been troubling me as well. I think the cognitive dissonance arises from the complexity of the LL mission - be a profitable business - AND - give people infinite freedom - AND make the world a better place. But in the end, it's the ability to hold two apparently juxtaposed ideals in balance that make the way for great things.<BR/><BR/>@Delicious Demar <BR/>.."Within that context though, SL continues to grow and thrive - glitches and growing pains notwithstanding, and we all need to take some level of personal responsibility for shepherding that growth and vitality by participating in it!" <BR/><BR/>So elegantly put, I wish I had said that. Thank you!Grace McDunnough™https://www.blogger.com/profile/10573463430195713363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36762068.post-56243545293038127792008-01-29T18:49:00.000-05:002008-01-29T18:49:00.000-05:00Thank you for such a thought-provoking post! I th...Thank you for such a thought-provoking post! I think you raise some really interesting and fundamental questions not only about the survivability of SL, but also about what form it is going to take if it does survive.<BR/><BR/>I echo your call to action - Linden Labs will do what they think they have to do to manage their corporate risk, but even with the "regulations" that they have gradually been introducing, the latitude we all have to create the social and ethical fabric of Second Life is still huge.<BR/><BR/>We have read some people opining that a truly free society will come together and organize/police itself as a natural part of it's organic growth, and it will do so without any real central controls (or in spite of them perhaps). Maybe Second life is just the kind of petri dish that can allow that to happen - i guess time will tell.<BR/><BR/>But as to the central question of the post:<BR/>What is Second Life?<BR/>Is it Philip Rosedale's world changer, or simply a business?<BR/>Can it be both?<BR/><BR/>I suspect that Second Life is less a world changer than it is the expression of a changing world. Virtual worlds and the creative expression they offer, the enhanced communication, the socio-political experiment that SL represents - all of these might simply be the initial embodiments toward new ways of interacting that promise to change the world in the coming years. But I think it overstates it to say SL is a cause - perhaps it is simply an effect of more fundamental changes in a long chain from (most recently) the internet to chat rooms to MySpace and Facebook, IMVU, MMORPG's, etc...<BR/><BR/>In the end, Linden Research is a business - and its success or failure rests on its ability to make SL (and its other products) profitable. Without LL - SL simply ceases to exist All of Philip Rosedale's dreams and philosophical leanings regarding SL and virtual worlds can only find expression through a profitable business model. <BR/><BR/>Within that context though, SL continues to grow and thrive - glitches and growing pains notwithstanding, and we all need to take some level of personal responsibility for shepherding that growth and vitality by participating in it! We can't wait for Linden Research to define our reality - as you have said Grace - we need to start engaging in the dialogue that addresses the social, political and cultural issues that you speak of. If we don't do it, who will??<BR/><BR/>Blogs like these are one of the places that this dialogue starts - so kudos to you!<BR/><BR/>DDDelicious Demarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01781975246276113883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36762068.post-87384980700861588452008-01-29T14:47:00.000-05:002008-01-29T14:47:00.000-05:00Well in the end they did choose the RL model. In f...Well in the end they did choose the RL model. In fact they used it explicitly and exclusively by only allowing RL banks, and banned the high-risk privately run banks :) So if those are the two options they made a pretty good compromise already ;)<BR/><BR/>Though I'm not defending LL at all, and i think you have a good point if you argue a point of community management and communications or even consistancy in their outings. It shows LL has a long way to go as well, and I often think SL has outgrown LL because of the 'sneak' success, becoming world news overnight.<BR/><BR/>I just find it remarkable at times the context of these decisions by LL seems to be misunderstood in my opinion. It's corporate risk management, or business innovation based on RL laws. The way SL is placed in the context of being some sort of exception of this - sometimes as a pet project, as an institution, a new frontier, a government - is really interesting, but not the way to grow as a platform I believe :)Digadohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15292872101245917180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36762068.post-73078933560623787242008-01-29T14:37:00.000-05:002008-01-29T14:37:00.000-05:00It is a product, but it's not just a product - as ...It is a product, but it's not just a product - as Grace stated.<BR/><BR/>Of course the decision would not be consensual, but at least there would be some feedback. If they do polls on voice usage, could they not have done it on the banking issue? <BR/><BR/>I agree that banks, in the form they were, were a liability for LL. But is the only possible solution to deal with potentially disruptive practices in SL to (a) ban them or (b) use RL models? So much for improving the human condition..<BR/><BR/>(more ranting re this on my blog)IYan Writerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00682961187290777139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36762068.post-82774389079182706032008-01-29T09:52:00.000-05:002008-01-29T09:52:00.000-05:00iyan: 'In touch with the community' - That is asum...iyan: 'In touch with the community' - That is asuming 'the community' would ever come to an agreement on the banking issue. Helpful and insightful as the metanomics meetings were, it was obvious the community does not have 1 voice, 1 opinion, 1 suggestion. They are often conflicting interests in individual solutions.<BR/><BR/>Second Life is Linden Labs product, but the common goal both residents and LL share is continuity. LL deals with issues as they come to protect their financial interest in the platform. This is their responcibility as owners of the platform.<BR/><BR/>The negative perception of community (mis)management seems to be a pattern troughout all virtual worlds and MMORPG's. Those who disagree are often given more voice than those who do agree with the developping side. 'They' (the developpers) never get it 'right' simply because (product)management is not about pleasing everyone all the time, sometimes you have to take impopulair descisions to realise continuation. (Suppose feb 2008 another bank collapses, huge negative media spin again - everyone will wonder why LL didn't act sooner against 100% interest rates and 30% default loans) <BR/><BR/>Fact is: Second Life is a product. Many people both inworld and on the outside in LL and dev companies depend on it for income. In order for it to grow, it needs to either continue to be profitable - or go open source. LL seems to have decided as of 2009 they will go with the second option and probably adjust their company model and role accordingly. Until that time LL provides the service, and sets the rules based on RL law for their <I>cashcow</I>.Digadohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15292872101245917180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36762068.post-76140448888111318492008-01-29T05:35:00.000-05:002008-01-29T05:35:00.000-05:00I think that selected parts of the Second Life com...I think that selected parts of the Second Life community already are addressing these issues. However, they do so in a vacuum of sorts - without Linden Lab actually *listening*, it's more group therapy than community engagement. The second banking Metanomics event was a great example; the SL community was wonderfully engaged, a lot of different opinions were presented and talked about - but what did it mean for Second Life, in the end? What was the feedback from Linden Lab? The usual silence.<BR/><BR/>Was there a way for Linden Lab to regulate the banking sector in a way that would be both legal and in touch with the community (that was of a remarkably like mind regarding this decision)? We will never know, because LL did not make the effort of finding it.<BR/><BR/>Is there a way to regulate the SL stock market in such a way? Possibly, but I think that the history will repeat itself.<BR/><BR/>BTW - the term "SL killer application" does not mean "application that kills SL", but an application that is so useful that it propels SL to the mass market - like Lotus 1-2-3 in the olden days. Virtual workspaces, meetings and conferences could possibly fulfil that role.<BR/><BR/>But as far as killing Second Life - it is up to Linden Lab to decide whether they will share Netscape's fate or not. The strict focus on software improvement (needed as that is), rejection of community feedback and stamping RL solutions where they possibly do not belong could make it vulnerable to a technically similar rival from a less legally constrained environment.IYan Writerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00682961187290777139noreply@blogger.com